Comments on Light and Heat: ATTEMPTED AXIOM: Contra Ad Hominem

Sorry to respond so slowly. My dad has dial up and...

2009-05-21T15:26:31.943-05:00

Sorry to respond so slowly. My dad has dial up and Win98, so I had trouble posting comments while visiting with him the last few days.

Thanks for the followup response Anonymous. I like the way you think. I think I agree with most of what you've written here. (Interesting that I can evaluate your argument even though I have no idea who you are, huh?) Religious convictions should

I wasn't making an argument so much as stating an ...

2009-05-17T15:29:00.000-05:00

I wasn't making an argument so much as stating an assumption. Or maybe just a conclusion. ;-)

I arrived at my position as an attempt to make sense out of my experience. I learned at some point that a good argument is generally only effective when your target shares your own assumptions. Since I was usually arguing with people who didn't share my assumptions, they were

Actually, now that I have thought a bit more, I th...

2009-05-16T14:52:00.000-05:00

Actually, now that I have thought a bit more, I think it would be better to just change the word "merit" to "truth."

I think the word "merit" was causing confusion. Merit could mean "degree of certainty" or "validity," neither of which I was driving at.

Excellent argument anonymous. If I might play devi...

2009-05-16T14:46:00.000-05:00

Excellent argument anonymous. If I might play devils advocate a moment.

Would you say you assumed the conclusion you desired and then framed your assumptions to reinforce it?

For instance, did you decision-making go like this?:

(1) You wanted to believe that people mount arguments to reinforce conclusions they already hold.
(2) Therefore, you assert your

"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and dr...

2009-05-16T14:25:00.000-05:00

"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

This is certainly an argument from Jesus. But here is the question: If someone else besides Jesus makes it, does it lose merit? Or is its merit independent of his making it?

I think its merit is independent of his making it. I wouldn't say it gained merit (i.e. truthfulness) when Jesus

Perhaps, in the larger scheme of things, the merit...

2009-05-16T10:38:00.000-05:00

Perhaps, in the larger scheme of things, the merit of the argument isn't nearly as interesting (or meaningful) as the one making it.

An "argument" is, more or less, just the application of fixed rules to propositions /assumptions. It's essentially a form of mathematical calculation. The most unassailable argument is only as good as the assumptions. For example:

All

On John 6, that's why I kept pronouns out of it. I...

2009-05-16T09:16:00.000-05:00

On John 6, that's why I kept pronouns out of it. In 6:53 the wording is "Son of Man" not I. I guess it depends on whether we count it as an assertion or an argument. "if...then" or "unless...then" is a sort of argument, right?

My question is if someone made that argument without John 6:53 in the Bible, would we accept it? Or do we accept it because of who made it?

But then

Certainty and rejection are not binary realities, ...

2009-05-15T22:01:00.000-05:00

Certainty and rejection are not binary realities, but exist on a spectrum. (As Calvin said: "unbelief is, in all men, always mixed with faith... we cannot imagine any certainty that is not tinged with doubt, or any assurance that is not assailed by some anxiety.") Thus an argument can be thought true without certainty, and indeed held as suspect without rejecting it.
I agree. Good

Certainty and rejection are not binary realities, ...

2009-05-15T12:24:00.000-05:00

I believe wisdom suggests we should be aware of th...

2009-05-15T12:06:00.000-05:00

I believe wisdom suggests we should be aware of the sources of arguments, for the reasons you mention. However, one need not be morally pure or have exhaustive understanding to make a true argument. Heck, if that's true, why should I believe that it is? :-)

I think it may be true ideally, assuming men are a...

2009-05-15T11:27:00.000-05:00

I think it may be true ideally, assuming men are angels and our knowledge is exhaustive. Yet, in this world, an argument may be made by a person who purposefully leaves out information (such as merely making a point about returning rightful property without giving the information of being on a homicidal rampage).

So while the axiom may be true ideally, wisdom may dictate that due to

Well, if we take the exact words of Christ (with t...

2009-05-15T11:19:00.000-05:00

Well, if we take the exact words of Christ (with the "I") then the merit of the argument entirely depends on the the one making it.
I think we have an unusual circumstance with this particular passage. Jesus is both the one making the argument, and the subject, his person being the basic premise. I can mount the same argument he mounts by saying, "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the

Well, if we take the exact words of Christ (with t...

2009-05-15T10:11:00.000-05:00

Well, if we take the exact words of Christ (with the "I") then the merit of the argument entirely depends on the the one making it.

With my example, what invalidates the argument is the state and moral character of the one making the argument. The merit of the argument of returning rightful property is undermined by the character and state of the one who makes it.

I can see

I suppose one could also construct Jesus' statemen...

2009-05-15T08:52:00.000-05:00

I suppose one could also construct Jesus' statement as an argument: I am the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore, no one comes to the Father but by me.

But the argument is sound regardless of whether Jesus makes it or I make it from the pulpit on Sunday morning, given the fact that the premise is true (i.e. Jesus is the way, truth, and life).

Interesting point anonymous. The important distinc...

2009-05-15T08:49:00.000-05:00

Interesting point anonymous. The important distinction to keep in mind is between arguments and assertions. An assertion would be an element of an argument, but not itself an argument. The Scripture you quote is an assertion rather than an argument.

This would be an argument which includes Jesus' assertion: Jesus is the Son of God, therefore his assertion of being the way, the truth,

How about: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...

2009-05-15T08:43:00.000-05:00

How about:

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

The merit of this argument depends entirely on the one who makes it.

I would say that the argument is flawed. It lacks ...

2009-05-15T00:35:00.000-05:00

I would say that the argument is flawed. It lacks merit in itself.

It should read: "If a man loans you his sword, you are obligated to give his rightful property back to him as long as he is not on a homicidal rampage."

I disagree. For an argument when conducted in the ...

2009-05-14T23:18:00.000-05:00

I disagree. For an argument when conducted in the real world for a complex issue depends on context/circumstance and motive. Therefore, one should at least doubt the merit of an argument, contigent on more information, in certain circumstances.

Let me give an example, from Socrates. If a man loans you his sword, you are obligated to give his rightful property back to him. Yet, if the