Comments on Light and Heat: CRITIQUING A CRITIQUE (Part 5): Dr. Stephen Wellum...

I've enjoyed it too Roger! Thanks for the link and...

2008-11-26T14:23:00.000-06:00

I've enjoyed it too Roger! Thanks for the link and God bless.

Jay

Hi Jay,I’ve enjoyed our conversation very much, an...

2008-11-26T14:20:00.000-06:00

Hi Jay,

I’ve enjoyed our conversation very much, and you have made some excellent points that have challenged my position. However, rather than continue our debate ad infinitum, I was hoping you’d check out the following article which I believe gets to the heart of our disagreement. It basically argues that there have been two prominent views regarding the Mosaic Covenant

Roger,I encourage you to read back through my prev...

2008-11-21T12:03:00.000-06:00

Roger,

I encourage you to read back through my previous couple of comments, particularly about the distinction the Westminster divines recognized between the Covenant of Works given to Adam, which Paul oftentimes refers to as simply the Law, and the Old covenant, which includes the law but is not a Covenant of works.

Also, with respect to AH's comparison of the Old covenant and

Hi Jay,Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to ...

2008-11-21T09:36:00.000-06:00

Hi Jay,

Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you, but I’ve been really busy this week. You wrote:

The Westminster divines understood this when they describe the ceremonies of the Old Covenant writing: "which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by

Roger,My point about the similarity of the covenan...

2008-11-17T14:12:00.000-06:00
Roger,

My point about the similarity of the covenants, which the author of Hebrews (AH) discusses, is this:

The atonement system of the Old and New covenants is the same. Both covenants teach that sinners need forgiveness and that forgiveness comes by the shedding of blood. The Westiminster divines understood this when they describe the ceremonies of the Old Covenant writing: "

The author of Hebrews seems to understand that the...

2008-11-17T02:01:00.000-06:00
The author of Hebrews seems to understand that these two covenants are so similar that the ceremony of atonement in the one exactly parallels the ceremony of atonement in the other. Was this ceremony not of the essence of the Old Covenant and the New? Of course it was. Therefore they must be the same in nature.

The fact that the Old Covenant rites were “copies of the heavenly

Yes Roger, we will have to agree to disagree. I am...

2008-11-14T17:16:00.000-06:00
Yes Roger, we will have to agree to disagree. I am a minister of the Gospel and have submitted myself to the teaching of the Westminster Standards. I believe Westminster's doctrine of "God's Covenant with Man" is true.

Nonetheless, I'll ask a few more questions. If there is a discontinuity of nature between the Old and New covenants, as you have confessed, how can the author of Hebrews

Hi Jay,Well, we’ll probably just have to agree to ...

2008-11-14T14:59:00.000-06:00
Hi Jay,

Well, we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree on this one (though I don’t think we’re that far apart). Either way, it’s always good to doctrinally “spar” with you -- how’s that broken jaw coming along? :-) Anyway, you wrote:

For instance you frame the entire work of Christ as a response to the failure of the Mosaic covenant.

Not exactly. But

Hi Roger,I believe your response is a way to inter...

2008-11-14T11:28:00.000-06:00
Hi Roger,

I believe your response is a way to interpret the passages at hand but not the best way.

For instance you frame the entire work of Christ as a response to the failure of the Mosaic covenant. I would ask: Did Christ's death have no meaning for those saints who lived prior to Moses?

In other words, I believe the Scriptures teach that the moral law was issued to

(1) The Old Covenant is not just the Mosaic covena...

2008-11-14T10:58:00.000-06:00
(1) The Old Covenant is not just the Mosaic covenant, but it is the Mosaic covenant built upon the Abrahamic. In other words, the Mosaic covenant is gracious because it includes as its foundation the Abrahamic promise and stipulation. The two covenants may be distinguished but never separated, because they are by nature the same covenant of grace.

Sorry, Jay, but that’s

Roger,I think we are diverging with respect to the...

2008-11-13T13:02:00.000-06:00
Roger,

I think we are diverging with respect to the term "nature." You seem to be suggesting that the Old Covenant, by which you mean the Mosaic covenant alone, was by its very nature a works-covenant. Whereas the Abrahamic Covenant is by nature a grace-covenant.

Is that what you are saying? If so I would disagree on these grounds:

(1) The Old Covenant is not just the

The Covenantal answer avoids this problem [of sepa...

2008-11-10T03:32:00.000-06:00
The Covenantal answer avoids this problem [of separating salvation from the covenants] by asserting continuity (i.e. no change) in the nature of the Old and New Covenants, while also maintaining a proper understanding of discontinuity (i.e. change) in administrations.

The problem is that Scripture clearly separates salvation from the very nature of the Old Covenant -- “

Blake,I think the question isn't which interpretat...

2008-10-29T23:35:00.000-05:00
Blake,

I think the question isn't which interpretation has more (or less) discontinuity. It's which interpretation has the right kind of discontinuity. In other words, it's not really a question of quantity but quality. Everyone agrees there is discontinuity between the testaments, otherwise they would not be "they" (i.e. plural) but "it" (i.e. singular). Therefore the question is

Thanks Jay, for the thoughtful response. Concerni...

2008-10-29T11:06:00.000-05:00
Thanks Jay, for the thoughtful response. Concerning John 7, Acts 2, Ezekiel 36, and Joel 2, I don't think saying it is "an increased degree of the Spirit's outpouring" does justice to the texts. Based upon exegesis of texts like these, I see more discontinuity in the NC. Of course I know you know this. This is one example of why I think the theological category 'cov. of grace' flattens the

Blake,So, in John 7.37-39, Acts 2, the 'newness' o...

2008-10-27T14:09:00.000-05:00
Blake,

So, in John 7.37-39, Acts 2, the 'newness' of the Spirit is only God progressively revealing more of his 'special presence?' Were OT promises of the coming Spirit (Ezek 36, Joel 2) just promises of more of God's 'special presence?' Would you reiterate your view of the newness of the Spirit in light of these passages?

Sure thing.

To your question above,

Hey Jay, So, in John 7.37-39, Acts 2, the 'newnes...

2008-10-27T08:53:00.000-05:00
Hey Jay,

So, in John 7.37-39, Acts 2, the 'newness' of the Spirit is only God progressively revealing more of his 'special presence?' Were OT promises of the coming Spirit (Ezek 36, Joel 2) just promises of more of God's 'special presence?' Would you reiterate your view of the newness of the Spirit inlight of these passages?
Also, I don't think its fair to say that Baptists

Hi Blake,I will be sure to address the work of the...

2008-10-25T15:10:00.000-05:00
Hi Blake,

I will be sure to address the work of the Spirit in a future post.

The OT NC promises link full and final forgiveness of sins, God's intimate presence, and the gift of the Spirit. In fact, there are more promises about the age of the Spirit than the other two. How does this work in your system?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you be more

Thanks Jay, I have been reading your review but wa...

2008-10-25T08:00:00.000-05:00
Thanks Jay, I have been reading your review but was waiting until you are finished to comment. In a future post, could you address the issue of the Spirit. The OT NC promises link full and final forgiveness of sins, God's intimate presence, and the gift of the Spirit. In fact, there are more promises about the age of the Spirit than the other two. How does this work in your system? We, like